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Post  Haar_Dragon on Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:42 am

True enough, but you're being fairly specific. Pichu and G/W might not be great, but the fact remains that they match up pretty much equally with everyone else. They'll probably be able to do just as well fighting Fox as they would against Marth, Mario, Roy, Mewtwo, or anyone else. There isn't a be-all, end-all, and there isn't really any specific character who only exists to be the game's butt-monkey. There aren't really any infinite comboes that can regularly work, and there isn't anyone who can completely dominate everyone else. Fox vs. Marth is gonna be about the same as Mario vs. Roy, in that it all comes down to player skill, rather than the supposed Tier List.

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Post  Zeldaman2.0 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:15 am

That's true, but for one, it's a lot easier to pick up and play as Fox than it is for Game and Watch, and from a designer standpoint having a lot of characters is a logistical nightmare, and it'd be hard to perfectly balance a lot of characters. Luigi, Samus, G&W, Pichu, Mewtwo, all great, fun characters, but they're harder to use than say, Mario, Fox, or Sheik. I know, I know, inb4charactertier. But think: Jigglypuff doesn't have an actual B-recovery, Samus is reliant on her specials and aerials and has trouble KO-ing, Luigi's recovery has /no/ arc to it and is a clone of Mario that slides, Mewtwo is strong but requires charging up... etc. I'm not saying they're bad, and Mewtwo is honestly my favorite character most matches (dat laugh) but if I want to do very well I'll use Capt. Falcon. Similarly, in games like King of Fighters XIII (the only one I've really sat down and played) characters like Shen and Terry are good, but they seem to lack the overall range and power of characters like Yuri, Kula, and K'. For SkullGirls: Painwheel has STUPID good combo potential, but she's very hard to use fluently without practice. Valentine or Filia though? Spam heavies and win, with more efficiency than most other characters. Again, I try to approach things like this from a dev view and a player view these days, so I'm sorry if my arguments are a tad specific, it's little things in the meta that stick out to me.
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Post  NebulaGregarZX on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:17 am

Y'know what? I've decided that I don't quite care enough about the postgame for Hour of Darkness. I'd rather go through the main story again, or buy the next game. But my priority for getting new games currently goes to Bravely Default, so Dark Hero Days or Cursed Memories will have to wait. Plus, I STILL need to finish Tales of the Abyss, and get on with Pokémon X, and I might want to finish my New Game Plus run of Persona 4, and my NG+ Kingdom Hearts 3D run... I've got better things to do than grind until my eyes bleed.

On the note of fighting games: I know nothing. Sorry, can't really add much to this conversation. Of course, I can still say I agree about DLC, and that being a small company doesn't excuse making a bad game. It's just that a BIG company making a terrible game is much more inexcusable.

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Post  Haar_Dragon on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:33 am

Mewtwo requiring charging up and Jigglypuff having no B-recovery isn't unbalanced, though. If Jigglypuff had a b-recover, it would be overpowered. And everything else you mentioned was a playstyle difference. If I play Brawl for fun, I use Ike. If I play for victory, I use Lucas. If I play Melee for fun, I use Captain Falcon. If I play for victory, I...don't. I'll use Roy, or Pikachu. But that's because they suit my playstyle. I use Ike and Ganondorf because I like the characters of Ike and CF, and I like playing as them, even if I'm not particularly good with the latter. And any character with good combos will take practice. And that's why I don't believe in the Tier List. It's not a measure of "this character is good, this one is bad." Any character is just as good as any other if the player knows what they're doing. The only thing the Tier List does is say which characters are the easiest for newcomers. I mean...the strategy for Meta Knight in Brawl is "hold the A button until you need to do a Smash attack for a kill." And he's S-tier. Ganondorf, way down in the H-tier, requires more skill to play as, but if you can get him down right and learn to use his power AND his speed, he can be just as good. I play Ganondorf BETTER than I play as Meta Knight.

In other (much shorter) words, it's not a matter of who you play as, it's a matter of players' skill.

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Post  khfreak358 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:57 am

The roster for KI is small because the game isn't finished. Double Helix has openly admitted this. And, yes, I'll admit, that probably wasn't the best idea, but, in the end, the important is if the game plays well. I'll be honest, I rather prefer that health bar setup to the more traditional one. It adds an extra risk to playing more dangerously. For example, you ever just barely win a round with only a sliver of health? In a game like, say, MK9, this wouldn't carry over at all to the next round, so, while it's still not a situation you'd want to be in, there are less repercussions. With a setup like KI or Injustice, doing this will put you at a huge disadvantage in the next round, as all your opponent needs to do is get in a bit of chip damage to win the round.

But, I digress. We all have different opinions, and I'm sure there's something out there I dislike that you enjoy. Based on the clip you used in reaction to my statement about KI, I'm going to assume Spider-Man 2 falls under that category.

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Post  Haar_Dragon on Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:25 pm

What I'd say is important is that they put an unfinished game on the shelf. Wasn't the best idea be damned, that's just a scam. With that said, if you prioritize it playing well over it actually being a finished product...One, I can kinda see where you're coming from, but I disagree, and two, I don't see the need to shoot you down, because ultimately it is your opinion, and even if everyone else in the world were to disagree with you, it doesn't really matter.

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Post  Cremator of the Sky on Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:17 am

khfreak358 wrote:The roster for KI is small because the game isn't finished. Double Helix has openly admitted this. And, yes, I'll admit, that probably wasn't the best idea, but, in the end, the important is if the game plays well. I'll be honest, I rather prefer that health bar setup to the more traditional one. It adds an extra risk to playing more dangerously. For example, you ever just barely win a round with only a sliver of health? In a game like, say, MK9, this wouldn't carry over at all to the next round, so, while it's still not a situation you'd want to be in, there are less repercussions. With a setup like KI or Injustice, doing this will put you at a huge disadvantage in the next round, as all your opponent needs to do is get in a bit of chip damage to win the round.

But, I digress. We all have different opinions, and I'm sure there's something out there I dislike that you enjoy. Based on the clip you used in reaction to my statement about KI, I'm going to assume Spider-Man 2 falls under that category.

That health bar thing is honestly my main gripe. A simple mistake being responsible for a round loss is a common occurrence. But a mistake being a reason for an entire match to be lost is just completely unacceptable to me. I'm all for mistakes being punished, but to just practically shove it down your throat just leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth.

But at the end of the day, it's your money and your decision Khfreak. All I can do is just pointlessly rant about stuff I come across like a gibbering mouther. So really, if you're deadset on getting KI and loving it, go out, buy it, and play that thing until the break of dawn.

So, on a slightly lighter and related note, went to see a friend of mine yesterday and spent some time playing J-Stars Victory Vs with him. Hmm, on second thought, should I continue with that or just fade away?
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Post  Zeldaman2.0 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:14 pm

Zeldaman2.0 wrote: it's a lot easier to pick up and play as Fox than it is for Game and Watch
but they're harder to use than say, Mario, Fox, or Sheik. I know, I know, inb4charactertier. I'm not saying they're bad, and Mewtwo is honestly my favorite character most matches (dat laugh) but if I want to do very well I'll use Capt. Falcon.
characters like Shen and Terry are good, but they seem to lack the overall range and power of characters like Yuri, Kula, and K'. For SkullGirls: Painwheel has STUPID good combo potential, but she's very hard to use fluently without practice. Valentine or Filia though? Spam heavies and win, with more efficiency than most other characters.

Literally every point I was making in my post was along the lines of what you said Haar. I don't know how I missed making these points.

In any case, closing the subject of Disgaea, the post-game is literally just DLC content: nothing in it furthers the main story in any real way and you get cool neat items that have no huge purpose moving forward, because there is so little "forward" left.

So, Pokemon, eh Gregar? How do you usually play? Grab a favorite starting type, a bird, and wreck everything while slowly accumulating more party members? Ditch the starter for "better" pokemon?
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Post  NebulaGregarZX on Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:34 pm

Well, it's another case of I-only-two-years-ago-started-playing-games-correctly. Originally, I'd just overlevel my starter for everything. Once I got White, I decided to mix it up and balance my party. Then, in X, I created a balanced, interchangeable team for every possible situation. Since X gives you two starters, I do use them both, though the second one kinda replaced my bird in my primary lineup. 'Cuz it was a Charmander that's now a Charizard.

I kinda don't see why people say it's the hardest game yet. I was pretty much breezing through it. Then I got sidetracked by the Battle Chateau and buying clothes, so my team is about level 80 on average. I'm trying to train up a secondary team just to balance things out. Plus, having more to choose from is usually a good thing. It's basically just a bunch of Eevee I caught, and plan to train and evolve. First one kinda accidentally became a Sylveon. And I heard the conditions for that were difficult to achieve... am I just weirdly lucky?

So, yeah. I like being strong and versatile, but I'm not really into competitive battling. It sounds just like the Disgaea postgame: too much hassle to be worth it.

I actually started a Ruby Nuzlocke, but progress has been halted by me being busy with everything else.

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Post  Malakili007 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:55 pm

NebulaGregarZX wrote: First one kinda accidentally became a Sylveon. And I heard the conditions for that were difficult to achieve...

personally I found it ABSURDLY easy to the point when I was trying to get other eeveelutions I constantly kept ending up with sylveons
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Post  Zeldaman2.0 on Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:44 pm

Well, Pokemon doesn't really have a "correct" way of doing things, especially since the games were made for younger kids. Heck, it actually almost revolves around the format of Starter and Bird for most of the game, with something nearby providing an advantage over the Leader, until you find the Legendary to get through the Elite Four and finish the rest of the game. I actually beat Blue for the first time that way: Blastoise and Zapdos combo. I probably couldn't make it to Zapdos again if I tried. XD Though... Gen 6 has been notoriously easy from what I've heard, especially with the Exp. Share and the Lucky Egg given so early in the game. Not to mention the "Oh hey there's something conveniently strong against my Gym" premise seems to be taken to the maximum. And you're correct, the metagame isn't worth it, but it's occasionally fun to play against other battlers.
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Post  Haar_Dragon on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:38 am

Sylveon requires Pokemon-Amie. Don't touch it if you want something else.

Until Diamond/Pearl, I just kinda overlevelled my starter as well...I ended up breezing through the Elite Four with a level 70-something Torterra, 40-something Staraptor, and Dialga. And three sacrifices so I could use Revives as necessary.

Black, I somehow ended up with three dragon types on my team in the form of Reshiram, Druddigon, and Haxxorus. And since then I've been playing properly. So...yeah.

In X and Y, the hardest part of training an Eevee for me was...catching 8 Eevees...Mostly because I was too stupid to wait for access to the Repeat Ball. And through all of this, I learned that beyond Sylveon, the one that's done the best for me was Vaporeon. In LeafGreen.

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Post  NebulaGregarZX on Sat Apr 12, 2014 2:02 am

...I don't really use Legendaries that much. But I think it's justified that there' wild Pokémon near each first Gym that have a type advantage against the leader's Pokémon: it's the early-game, and you don't have access to many locations for catching different types, and your starter probably hasn't got many good moves. It also forces the player to either learn to use other Pokémon from their starter, choose the right starter to minimize difficulty, or just make them grind until they can muscle through anyway.

That said, yeah, there's no one correct way to do things. That would be boring. Some games lend themselves well to that, but Pokémon would be too boring if there was just one way to go about winning. I didn't even know you were suppose to keep a bird with you. I only did it so they could Fly, and in X, so that the first Gym would be easier. ...Actually, in every case I've seen, the first encounter in every sixth-gen game has been with a Pidgey. I think it's the same level and gender each time... My silly theory is that it's a deliberate move to get savvy trainers to catch it and use it on the first Gym.

...Hold on, I don't recall getting any Lucky Egg in X. The EXP Share, yeah, and it works like in Red and Blue, but no Lucky Egg. Maybe a Pokémon is holding it and I forgot... or it's sitting in my Bag, unused because I've already overlevelled my team for the main story.

To be fair, Haar, Gen V had a lot more Dragon-types than normal. It's one of the reasons why Fairy-type was created.

Oh. ...Well, honestly, how can you ignore Pokémon-Amie with Eevee? Ah, whatever. I was hoping I could use it to speed along the process of getting Espeon and Umbreon.

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Post  Malakili007 on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:01 am

Haar_Dragon wrote:Sylveon requires Pokemon-Amie. Don't touch it if you want something else.


actually first second and third attempts at umbreon or espeon I NEVER touched it.....still got SYLVEON somehow
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Post  Haar_Dragon on Sat Apr 12, 2014 3:26 am

My first attempt at an Umbreon was like five minutes too early, so I had to reset (since it was for my actual team), and put myself back like 20 minutes because I ended up with an Espeon. I mean...I like Espeon, but I wanted a Dark-type...

Not to say it isn't more annoying to have to re-train it three times because of random crap, but still. It sucked.

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Post  NebulaGregarZX on Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:12 am

The requirements for evolving into Sylveon are as such:

Have the Eevee in question know/learn a Fairy-type move (Baby-Doll Eyes is common enough in wild Eevee).

Train it until it likes you. This could be either Pokémon-Amie, or traditional means, I suppose.

Level up once in order to actually allow it to happen.

...It's easy enough to screw up by not looking at the moveset. The conditions are the same as Espeon and Umbreon, just that it needs to know a kind of move rather than level up during daytime or nighttime. And obviously Sylveon gets priority over Espeon and Umbreon, or it would be impossible to get without them making very specific times of day.

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Post  Haar_Dragon on Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:28 pm

You sure? I could've sworn it was two hearts in Pokemon-Amie. Because otherwise, it'd be impossible to have and Espeon or Umbreon with a Fairy-type move. Granted Baby-doll Eyes is basically Growl, and Growl is one of the first moves I get rid of, but still, fact remains.

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Post  NebulaGregarZX on Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:02 am

It might be possible to teach or re-learn Fairy-type moves after the evolution. And it's more effective than Growl, and kinda makes more sense in some cases. How does a chicken growl at you?

...But, uh, no. I'm NOT sure. It's probably two hearts in Pokémon-Amie, and having a Fairy-type move. Because I'm rather certain that's one of the conditions.

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Post  Haar_Dragon on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:23 am

Oh, yeah, Fairy-type move is a requirement. I wasn't questioning that. Which is probably why you appear to have been confused. Still, Sylveon kicks so much ass. And is pink. Why is the pink thing the biggest badass on my team? Because I don't have a Feraligatr.

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Post  NebulaGregarZX on Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:55 am

It's that powerful? Interesting, that gives me a little more to look forward to in training. I will have the most badass band of thirteen-or-so Pokémon this world has ever seen!

...Considering the competition, maybe not. But they'll still be pretty great. I also got that event-Torchic. I wanted to nickname him BlazBlue, just because I thought it would be funny, but he counts as traded, so it's a no-go. But I'm excited to have a Blaziken again soon!

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Post  Haar_Dragon on Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:56 pm

Just a warning, kinda spoiler-y except they make it kinda obvious...

Spoiler:
they give you a free Lucario for the story, so just bear that in mind.

So, what'd you start with? I chose Chespin so that I could be that awkward guy with a Chespin.

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Post  NebulaGregarZX on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:05 pm

Oh? I caught a Riolu in an early route.

I chose Chespin, too. It kinda kicks ass, especially since it learned Rollout, which does exponentially more damage with each hit.

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Gstol, what the hell is your signature supposed to mean!?
TITAL Characters: Aleri, Rexial, Kiel, Sukiru, Aleri@Future(Aleri's ghost from the future) Leon(FFII, not KH), Seta Souji(P4 Protagonist), LaKuRo.
Org.XIV Characters: Aleri, Rexial, Xeromus, Adachi, Uchikina, Vita.
Planned Characters for DB Story: Redemi, Nobis, Matsuda.
To Be Introduced: Stice, Some jackass ghost, Rekoka, Raidou. Also some villains.

"Go forth, and set the world on fire!"
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Post  Maverick Entity on Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:31 pm

Sigh, I miss having my badass Swampert from the days of Sapphire.
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Post  Zeldaman2.0 on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:00 am

When I eventually get to my copy of X, I hear Fennekin is supposed to be pretty good, and it might just break my streak of Water Starters. Fire for early game, Psychic for late game? I think so.
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Post  Haar_Dragon on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:14 am

Actually, I'd recommend Froakie just as much as Fennekin. I mean...maybe I just don't really like Fennekin all that much since it blocks off Charmander as a viable option, and I also happen to really like Bulbasaur, but still, having your starter able to use HM moves that don't suck is, I think, a great move. Reminds me of my Level 96 Torterra for some reason. I taught him Rock Climb...for some reason. And he still kicks everything's ass. I think he's my favorite Starter that I've ever had. Probably because his other moves are Giga Drain, Synthesis, and Earthquake.

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